Peter Joseph has released the latest of a series of films, this one entitled "Zeitgeist—Moving Forward" and again is set about to proselytize and convert people towards agreement on " Jacques Fresco's" Venus Project solution to the problems faced by contemporary and future human beings.

Having seen the two previous films and doing research into the Venus Projects web-page and the many interviews of both Jacques and Peter online I consider myself well acquainted with what they are saying and suggesting.

I found the first film a useful primer for people interested in seeing a bigger picture of the situation we find ourselves in right now ( hence the name Zeitgeist) -the illusionary world we live in and the forces of others who threaten and coerce us through the centuries aka: The Elite.

The fundamental "problem" I see with Fresco's solutions are that they avoid addressing the issues of self governance and personal liberties. On top of that - they would have an ELITE class of Scientists making the decisions.

Fortsätter:


Their society would be relying on artificial materials in abundance in order to construct the cities they envision, thus unavoidably needing to cause pollution, and of course the idea that they would need investment (yes monetarily) in order to get the whole show on the road so to speak.

The Venus Project seeks to do all this " in order to achieve a sustainable new world civilization."

Hmmm..... a few words there that give me the creeps but anyway...

So, in essence the Monetary Elite are replaced with a Scientific Elite, (Fresco is himself a scientist) where they would determine what is needed for the non scientists (the majority).

The most important factor in the Venus Project is:

" the social direction of all nations working together on the restoration of the environment in a resources-based economy. The aim is the common heritage of all Earth's resources by all of the world's people."

Who then would DECIDE (dictate) the direction?

And why (on earth!) would a Tasmanian need to have any say in what a Norwegian does with the "resources" aka materials, aka substances, aka dirt, plants, animals, water, air and fire?

In order to implement this sort of sophistication we require a vast technological array of communications and control, maintenance and ENFORCEMENT through threats or support of their needs.

Their are many scenarios where challenges to this GLOBALIST view are apparent, and the aspect of punishment is met with "re-education" or reprogramming of which the guilty would be assessed by some group of other people (I assume, or maybe by thought sensing emotion reading A.I?)


Computers or MACHINES will be making the decisions based on the need to "restore the environment" which "professionals" will implement. But again, WHO or WHOM sets the standards here?

Science does.

And WHAT is science? And what are the fundaments of science, the values, the traditions and WHERE did they come from and from who?

From an elite class.


There are many things that the Venus Project claims that I agree with, and several solutions that I think are well thought out and viable, this is no surprise as Fresco is an intelligent man and his ideas are most probably the result of decades of research and consideration.

Check it our here:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq

Zeitgeist can be generally defines as: "the spirit, attitude, or general outlook of a specific time or period, esp as it is reflected in literature, philosophy, etc." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Zeitgeist)

What Fresco does is Scientifically arrogant with the fundamental claim that our western culture and traditions are the Zeitgeist!
In fact, since the first film in 2007 and up until now, many cultures exist as they have for thousands of years if not tens of thousands living without electricity, technology or science. This is also the "modern" human life-style" if you may.

But Fresco being the result of the culture he grew up in is of course coloured by that experience and hence his values are a result of this very immersion (something he claims outright in interviews) .

The Venus project is the impetus and vision of what Fresco sees as solutions according to the principals and standards he has, as a result of his cultural upbringing and arrogantly assumes many things from a western tradition and western values.

Fortsätter:


I am not advocating stone-age living, though Indigenous Peoples are also a strong consideration that Fresco seems to have completely missed. http://indigenouspeoplesissues.com/

"Civilized" culture ( to understand WHAT Civilized means look further here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=city) is by tradition agressive and violent, and origionally means to be a CITY-dweller.

Popular definitions of Civilized (by Civil culture of course are:
"1.
having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
2.
polite; well-bred; refined.
3.
of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.
4.
easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.

Un-Civilized is by original accounts to be Un-Greek, in that BARBARIANS (the generally accepted antithesis of the Civilized) weresimply not Greeks by culture or were by popular accounts not of their OWN culture.

In my thinking this goes in line with the Venus projects very fundaments. CIVILIZATION= Cities, Science, High Technology and a PYRAMIDAL (patriarchical) structure.

Again Fresco is the sum total of his cultural background, a civilized view, and embraces (almost naively?) the FAITH that science will be the solution to our ails.

The Venus Project and Zeitgeist make big claims and promise solutions (that in part are better than the present system) that are reliant on a Scientific Elite view and fundamentally replace one problem with another, if not by simply avoiding (or not considering) other aspects of the human experience.

We could take inspiration from the Venus Project, like many ideas, and use some of the concept to perhaps solve our LOCAL challenges at best. The risks of blindly accepting or not taking the time to consider the fundamental aspects of the Venus Project are just too great in comparisson to the rewards.

I can understand the appeal to younger people, especially in light of the fact that Fresco has been promoting these ideas in a well formulated way much longer than many involved have been alive.

I can understand the appeal of a ready-made system which metaphorically addresses current problems and uses media propaganda (initially from other researchers) to attract participation and social networking in line with the concerns of many of us in the know so to speak.

But given the reluctance to address the rudimentary aspects of cultures, organization, participation and concensus it can only appear, no matter how polished, as a potential scientific global dictatorship with an apparent elite class relying on Artificial Intelligence (re: pre-programmed and run by ideals founded in the elite scientific societies) to give solutions and run the very core of the society.

A complexity of this nature is also more vulnerable and would require sophisticated solutions.
One example would be in the composites used in the buildings envisioned as opposed to modern natural homes using basic materials that are easily repaired and recyclable.

Another would be the mass transit and the complexities versus de-centralized water-powered vehicles.

Water-power is not mentioned as well, a fact that I find suspicious, and indicative of an avoidance of relevant solutions and a focus on CENTRALIZED geothermal energy sources, and thus seperating the ability of common involvement in creating personal or custom solutions for local requirements.

The very appearance of the complex city structures with its circular mathematically calculated roadways, the huge impersonal soviet living structures creates an impersonal feeling, devoid of originality and again, the personal creative contribution.

Zeitgeist and the Venus Project's vision is one of control, maintenance and conformity, which would define the traditional and historical CITY-State through time and the very core of CIVI-lized societies since the times of Babylon and forward, and offer at its core no real solutions, they simply offer another systematic domination and direct influence over human beings on a global scale.

One can also be weary of a trans-humanistic attitudes and the embrace of Genetic Engineering to "IMPROVE humans (I am not surprised as genetic engineering is along the scientific tradition).
Fresco's own words (its not like he is hiding it) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM7azivE0TY
"..if we dont redisgn ourselves, we cannot keep up with technolgy."

Technology leads the way. We have been warned.

M

TZM,TVP,David Icke,Alex Jones är alla startade eller sponsrade av eliten, dom har inga lösningar på något. David Icke pratar om månens påverkan på oss i sin senaste bok???? Vad jag vet kan vi inte göra så mkt åt månen men det är en bra teori av Icke.
Ta Rik Clay som föreslog ett antal lösningar på våra problem och mådde så dåligt att han "hängde sig själv" efter det.....
Kom igen nu alla semivakna!! Vakna på riktigt det kan va för sent snart även om det är mysigt i dvalan.

1.
"...they would have an ELITE class of Scientists making the decisions."

...they would have Scientists analyzing and exposing the group/country that is polluting the most / using the most resources. Much like wikileaks... but for environmental issues.

2.
"Fresco is himself a scientist"

Fresco is himself a philosopher


3.

"Computers or MACHINES will be making the decisions based on the need to "restore the environment" which "professionals" will implement. But again, WHO or WHOM sets the standards here?"

No decisions will be done by computers, purely visualization of problem areas in the environment will be done. Humans then address this in the preferred way with the data from the resource observer system.

The one setting the "standard" is of course the people living in a area... if they want to live in a dump, then let them. But i f they want to terraform their own neighbor home into beautiful nature then they can ask the system for guidance. A simple plan to transform the area is then presented, all the resource flows will be calculated and the transformation into a beautiful society can easily be done by following the guide presented, step by step... if they want to, so to say... the people can decide to continue living in their dump... but as long as their dump is affecting other areas they will receive little resources from the world to continue their destructive behavior on earth. On the other hand they will receive all resources needed to clean up the dump because it is favorable for the entire earth.


4
"as a result of his[Fresco] cultural upbringing and arrogantly assumes many things from a western tradition and western values."

He envisions future tradition according to the direction we are having today and the possible outcomes of the worlds all cultures of today.

5
Again Fresco is the sum total of his cultural background, a civilized view, and embraces (almost naively?) the FAITH that science will be the solution to our ails.

Science will enable the (soon unemployed) people to think, get more free time. Not having to slave 8-10 hours every day may actually create wonders to society and the spiritual path of man. Culture will speed up and empathic skills will start to evolve in the population when "the everyday fighting for food" is of the menu. He has faith that something good will come out of this.

6
Who then would DECIDE (dictate) the direction of society?

Time will tell... I have heard no claim of Fresco being a almighty knowing being. One thing is certain, its not scientists, dictators or presidents that is going to decide... When technology evolves and more production is automated, then more and more people will become unemployed. THESE people will decide the direction... And Fresco is just pointing out the trend he have observed. And he offers some ideas about what to do to make the best out of the situation when we are there facing the problem.

7
The Venus Project and Zeitgeist make big claims

They have great visions for the future. Great hope! Even when they see people of today killing each other for no apparent reason. They actually believe humans to be capable of leaving the primitive stage (aka ape) and evolve into humans. They believe in the possibility of people becoming better, in all ways, even spiritual.

8
The Venus Project and Zeitgeist claim they have every and the best solution for every problem.

No, they are proposing the best solutions they can think of TODAY (with their local cultural background). And they are asking for you help to improve the vision. To make it better.

9
given the reluctance to address the rudimentary aspects of cultures, organization, participation and concensus

They address all these concepts. Help them with the aspects you think are missing. Cooperate and improve the weak ideas. They address the need for this!

10
... is not mentioned

Co create the vision and fill in the gaps you think is missing. Everything cant be included from the start. Water power is not the best energy source for nature in all locations on earth. But moderate use of it is planned.

11
The buildings are ugly/inefficient...

Focus on the functions, the design is just eye candy. Who would create a vision with normal designs on the houses? Come up with better ideas and show them a better design solving more resource issues at the same time. Propose better, show them that you have a better solution. I promise you, they will accept it and start using this much better idea immediately!

Quote:

Jag håller med till en viss grad.

Det vi KAN göra är lokalt, och med e människor vi medverka med, bor med.

Mycket INFORMATION och lösningar vill påpeka hur vi måste kämpa för STORA globala förändringar, och varna (tycker det är bra) om problemen i minsta detaljerna..

Igentligen är det väl ENKELT.

Månen 11 Sept och Gulf Oil? Kan inte göra mycket åt det, samt Ekonomiska systemet.

Att VETA om något är bra. Framförallt korruptionen och HUR det dgligen går till.

Vi fattar korruptionen i alla former.

Men sen? ; )

Lösningar kan vi väl skapa SJÄLVA lokalt med andra och dela med andra utanför.

4
"as a result of his[Fresco] cultural upbringing and arrogantly assumes many things from a western tradition and western values."

He envisions future tradition according to the direction we are having today and the possible outcomes of the worlds all cultures of today.

pingubenji, can you back up that claim with examples?

My main reasoning here is that Venus Project cannot make excuses considering HOW LONG they have been around (meaning Fresco) and not having considered other options.

I would love to see nothing more than a Utopian vision to use, and participate in, yet I see too many holes in the proposals Fresco has.

Do you have concrete examples of your claim that Venus does take into account and USE others' "help" as such and ideas?

Lets put it THIS way:

Killing etc can be taken care of. Human beings that are pacified cause no threat. Science has chemicals for that.

The trans-humanistic claims Fresco makes are NOT naive, he knows EXACTLY what he is talking about, as does Bill Gates when he speaks of solutions on Ted Talks.

Maybe its all clean and for real, I would like that to be true, his film-maker has done Waco Rules of Engagement for example.

Applaudable, though not without criticism:
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWrite ... /burial/doc/wre_rev1.html

Now I agree he may not be a scientist, my bust, though his backround is very technological:

"Mr. Fresco's background includes industrial design and social engineering, as well as being a forerunner in the field of Human Factors. Mr. Fresco has worked as both designer and inventor in a wide range of fields spanning from biomedical innovations to totally integrated social systems."

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/jacque-fresco/resume

He is anything but stupid ; )
And self-educated.

His facebook:
Jacque Fresco is a self-educated industrial designer and social engineer, author, lecturer, futurist, inventor, and the creator of The Venus Project.
Fresco has worked as both designer and inventor in a wide range of fields spanning from biomedical innovations to totally integrated social systems

I suppose he doesn't have any "degrees" so a plus for him for avoiding the Education system ; )

Science, you claim will enable alot.

Well it has been my understanding that SCIENCE is a tool of observation and has done nothing more than a shovel or hammer laying on the ground do.

Human beings on the other hand USE tools to their advantage.

And human being elicit change in their environment.

You mention "When technology evolves and more production is automated, then more and more people will become unemployed. THESE people will decide the direction..." is that true?

How will unemployed people make such decisions?

Perhaps they will be left to STARVE to death. Its happened before.

They claim in their own writings that computers will make decisions. AI. Their claim.

THey have not explained WHO will create the systems and programs involved however.

THEIR WORDS (my emphasis):

# Who makes the decisions in a resource based economy?

"No one does.

The process of arriving at decisions in this economy would not be based upon the opinions of politicians, corporate, or national interests but rather all decisions would be arrived at based upon the introduction of newer technologies and Earth's carrying capacity.

Computers could provide this information with electronic sensors throughout the entire industrial, physical complex to arrive at more appropriate decisions."

Earth's carrying capacity is a rather nebulous term, as well as APPROPRIATE DECISIONS.

These are VALUE based claims, ie What is Earth's CAPACITY based on, ie INFORMATION and evidence, and, who deems what is APPROPRIATE based on what values?

SCIENTIFIC ONES ; )

Like he mentioned that SCIENCE leads the way, people follow and adapt even to the point of TRANSHUMANISM.

His own words!
You claim (and maybe you are right) that
"No, they are proposing the best solutions they can think of TODAY (with their local cultural background). And they are asking for you help to improve the vision. To make it better."

Well this is also naive on Fresco's part if he is considering a GLOBAL change. Or arrogant.

Venus Project has been "evolving" since 1975 and probably well before then as well.

That Fresco does not address these important factors regarding OTHER cultures, values (especially indigenous peoples, as THEY have been the ONLY example of humans living in balance with nature, seems to be at best very suspect.

Its not that he is unaware, and if he is unaware of such facts he loses credibility and in fact may be so narrow minded, that like other SCIENTIFIC solutions, Venus Project may be in fact DANGEROUS and do more harm then good.

You mentioned
"...they would have Scientists analyzing and exposing the group/country that is polluting the most / using the most resources. Much like wikileaks... but for environmental issues."

Well right now Scientists are claiming C02 as a pollutant, and who then DECIDES what is the allowable amount of pollution.

Is not Genetic Engineering pollution or Nano-Technology?

"Maybe you can generate a whole automobile by moving molecules. That’s nano technology. When nano technology comes in we won’t worry about shortages."

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/wiki/ ... Lynn_Thompson_26/05/08/en

Understanding natural building materials, versus concrete and high-tech composites is not that difficult, but he is in fact either AVOIDING such things as to encourage funding and participation of high rolling capital investment in structures that can generate monetary wealth, or he is stuck in the old-school traditions.

He is intelligent, and has a strong visual ability and uses that in order to convey concepts and ideas. Marketing if you like.

Perhaps its all just an intricate ploy, a scam, and a way to live rich, travel the world and have fun, for a few ; )

Quote:

You answered the question yourself... its the message delivered in the new movie, almost with the same words as you used:

"...they[the majority of the population in the world] will be left to STARVE to death[after the coming technological advances puts all human labor out of business]."

(This is what he thinks is the most probable outcome of all traditions and practices we have now, that is why he is so concerned about the population issue. He seems fully convinced about this and tries to create a "society system" that limits the human exponential reproduction.
With the technical vocabulary he uses it's a bit hard to understand the fact that he is proposing a society "in harmony with nature", but he is. He thinks its inhumane to let people starve instead of simply educating/enlighten the people in the way of sustainable living in balance with the nature.)


Quote:

No single human, or even big group can create a fully functional society based on totally new principles without testing. Not even in one full life time... Humans learn by trial and error. And there has been no real testing yet.

Quote:

They want people to gather locally and enhance the vision... I think that would count as proof enough that they recognize there are lots more to think about. And all new input is encouraged.

Quote:

That is exactly the proposed way to build the envisioned society, to use science to create a specialized tool for observation...

Human beings then execute the actions needed for change in their environment with the guidance of computer simulations (to do it the most efficient way).

Quote:

Language barriers... He simply states that the system will calculate the action that will produce the best results. Mathematically that is. This is a "kind of decision making", also correctly called "Computer-aided decision making". But the real decision is finally made by humans that decide to execute the proposal generated from the AI-observation-system.

This is a perfect example of misunderstandings that kill new visions. People speak different languages... luckily I have a background in this field.

(I actually profiled my Master in computer science in the direction of AI. The field of AI is a fancy word for different optimization methods. This is because "intelligence" and even "Human intelligence" is defined as "doing the best action in a specific situation", aka "optimize the outcome of the situation at hand". And because the definition of intelligence is so poor, all left to do in the field is optimization, optimization, and guess what, more optimization... and that my friend is AI... Actually boring as hell after a while. Optimizing knowledge storage, knowledge representation, optimize learning speed, optimize classifiers [that is actually the only thing taking place if you brake it down and look at all the nervous signals taking place])

Quote:

If they do it right it doesn't matter who creates the decision making aid software. Math does not give different results depending on who is writing the system. The more important part, that you really should be concerned about, is what data is feed to the AI. Wrong input => Wrong output. The math inside the AI can be perfect but deliver wrong results as long as you feed the system with erroneous input data.

Quote:

If we trust the system (and the input data to the system) then we don't make any decision. And the system also don't make any decisions (in strict terms). It just calculates the best action.

The human that executes that action also don't make a decision (except the decision to trust the system). He/She simply do the action proposed and hopes for the best. (And adds some more human know-how to the plan, making it even better.)

Its all about how you view the process... language/knowledge barriers again destroying the message.

Quote:

Actually the capacity is based on the life style we want to have. If we decide that a good life standard are huts in a rain forest. Well, then the limitation is the amount of rain forest that is available and the space we want between the houses. And trust me, there is absolutely not enough forests for even 10% of the earth population to live in huts in the forests... I remember doing some calculations a couple of years ago...

If we decide that every human being should have the right to the same amount of resources. Well, then the hut-people will have much more resources accumulated for other things they want to do (hobbies for example) compared to a high-tech-person consuming huge amounts of energy and resources just to survive.

And the total amount of resources must come from observations and measurements. These are really good today, we know very well how many cubic meters of each resource we have "easily available on the earth".

Quote:

I don't know witch scientists you are referring. There are a huge amount of observations of increased growth rate because of the CO2. Most biologists are praising the CO2, it is the best thing for the nature right now. The scientists you may be referring are the ones involved in politics. (And the observation AI system would not participate in any political argumentation, It would simply calculate the best action for the environment according to measurements done by biologists. In this case...)

Quote:

He simply delivers a vision, his dream. The natural building materials are implicated in the vision of a "3D-printer" (huge machine building houses by adding layers of material like a printer).

Natural materials may actually be favorable in most situations when using this type of building method. All this is mentioned if you study this particular research field more.



I never really understood why people interpret the worst possible meaning when they listen to a sub language they don't fully understand. (In this case science-language).

AI is not killer robots running around looking like Arnold S....


And, in case you wonder why I wrote this much text, in a for me, non-native language: I did it for the exercise.

pingubenji du KAN skriva och är väl duktig på Engerleisch! ; )

Det slår mig med allt detta, att vi behöver INTE maskiner till denna utsträckning.

Det börjar blir absurd, lika absurd som pengar:

"Want to LIVE? Well you have to use OUR money....."

"Want to LIVE? Well, you have to use TECHNOLOGY".

The whole thing is very complex, and human life is simple, naturally simple. It just is.

The Venus Vision is putting SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY central to living, and assuming that HUMANS shall conform to the pace of TECHNOLGY to the point of TRANSHUMANSIM.

That's what they are saying now.

What they say later may be something else, it may even include the POST-human world. Who knows, but MONEY will and is being made, and it looks like the man is living well.... ; )

Quote:

Bra Bill... egentligen är det som du säger så är det naturligt enkelt... - ju längre bort man tar sig i villfarelse och illusion, ju mer non human är det, och ju mer komplicerat hävdas att det är, så därför ska "de" alltid ha än mer till forskning - så de kan få ut än mer av dödsteknik. Inte förrän folk hittar tilbaka till sig själva så är man på rätt kurs - det är att återvända till det enkla, basic things - det är som spetsen på en pyramid, bara en punkt, allt är stilla och lugnt. När det blivit ohållbart - för att man just inte längre alls lever efter det Sanna, vilket är enkla principer - då försöker "de" blunda, och lurar det som är human... och puttar in än mer av det som är sjukdomssymtom - superdator med mjukvara utvecklad av aliens... haha... aliens kontrollerar folk nu i väldigt hög grad, och tekniken är från dom. Aliens kontrollerar också folket med datorer, datortekniken är till för det - koppla människor till non human things... livsfarligt är det - Aliens här och andra komaister tror på det, det är verkligen sorgligt.

Har inte orkat läsa hela tråden nu, men hur ska man kunna ha någon form av samhälle utan någon form av en elit?

Ja e inte så tänd på Venus projektet, för jag tror inte det kommer funka. Oavsätt om maskiner bygger och tillverkar allt så är människor fortfarande individer med olika intressen och färdigheter. Någon är bra på en sak, och någon på en annan, därför kommer folk alltid vilja utbyta tjänster när dom vill få gjort något dom själva inte vill eller kan göra, och då kommer man behöva ett betalsystem för att köpa och sälja tjänster.

Allt annat innebär total anarki.

Men för min del vill jag mycket hellre ha en regering som består av forskare som jobbat sig upp genom att vara bättre på sitt område än alla andra, än att ha en hög politiker som massan väljer utan att själva förstå principerna för hur ett samhälle funkar...

Analyserar man demokrati så är den ett ganska bristfälligt system och inte speciellt rättvist...
Tex, vad är det som gör att en majoritet har rätten att bestämma hur en minoritet ska leva sina liv?

Mini, man kan väl funderar över VAD mänskligt liv är egentligen.

På jorden finns det någonting gemensamma med ALLA levande varelser:

De TA!

De ta mat, vatten, skydd och plats.

Bland Elitens "systematiskt vetenskapligt kontroll samhälle" är vi tvungna (HOTADE) sen första början att FÅ vad vi behöver genom ett fåtal människor i något system Eliten har uppbyggt.

Med teknologi.

Från början var det spjut kniv och svärd, nu är det även farmakologi, massmedian, microvågsenergi och ljudvapen, och allt annat...

Anarki är per definition bara att leva UTAN regering.

Naturen är rent anarkistiskt.

Människor verkar vara lite annorlunda och skiljer sig rejält med andra varelse här på jorden i att vi kan förändra omgivningen drastiskt, från det microscopiska till den macroskopiska.

Men vi ser att det behöver inte vara så.

Sistuation HÄR OCH NU som vi är inblandade i som du nämnde, med regeringar osv KAN och borde förbättras MED teknologin som finns nu, men det är människors VILJAN som avslöjar det eller inte.

Och människor sover psykiskt och fysiskt.

Svea Rikets Regering går hand i hand med det financiella som styr mycket mer än enstaka partiledare eller partier, allt är uppbyggt av en elit och styrde sen dess....

Jag gillar ekobyn ide, och att vi då ska ha DECENTRALISERADE kommunikation med varandra med en sundare teknologi, vatten baserade energi, skyddade el, decentraliserade energi källor, lokal styr, öppenhet och friheten.

Varför inte kameror överallt som är kollektivt styde och ha koll på varandra i offentlighet?

Mycket problem har sin ursprung från CENTRALISERING och ett fåtal som hotar och vill ha total kontroll.

Att kvinnor ska inte har makt och inflyttande i flera hudra år, tusen tals år är gräsligt och detta är BABYLON 7.0 eller något vi ser idag... Same Shit different Name... ;)

Men Venus pratar inte om denna, för att jag misstänker att de är för inspärrat i sina egna små ider eller har inget intresse (eller det hela handlar om en man som är fuskigt, vad vet jag... HAN lever bra... Var även med KKK [för att försöka "förändra de..?])

Livet ÄR enkelt och motsatsen KOMPLICERAT.

Det komplexa centralstyrde (EU till ex) kräver mycket energi och systematiskt uppbyggande, Beurocrats, och som det är nu MÅSTE vi går genom andra för att få allt detta vi har frihet till för att leva.


Andra ide är de här:

http://aktivdemokrati.se/ (kan vara ett bra steg... och MÖJLIGT nu!!!)

http://matriarchy.info/

http://www.infowars.com/russell-means-welcome-to-the-reservation/

Means warns that Americans have lost the ability of critical though, and with each successive generation become more irresponsible and as a consequence less free, disregarding a near-perfect document, the Constitution, which was derived from Indian law.

Means chronicles the loss of freedom from the 1840′s onwards, which marked the birth of the corporation, to Lincoln’s declaration of martial law, to the latter part of the 19th century and into the 20th when Congress “started giving banks the right to rule,” and private banking interests began printing the money.

Jaget tycker att filmen (moving forward) är bra som väckarklocka, håller inte med om allt, precis som de flesta, filmen beskriver dock många anledningar till mitt nuvarande jag, så filmen får fungera som källa om någon frågar mig. Har gjort på följande vis, hänvisar mina shoppingcentraplakat till mer kunskap på...

http://www.kramis.nu/vakna.html

Citat:

Har inte orkat läsa hela tråden nu, men hur ska man kunna ha någon form av samhälle utan någon form av en elit?

Det går alldeles utmärkt. Det gick hur fint som helst för många tusen år sedan innan de jävlarna landade och mixade sin DNA med vår.

Decentralisering är ordet. Ett land behöver inte vara större än Partille kommun. Och mångfald, diversity. Och öppna lösningar, för energi inte minst.

Vad som väl behövs idag är vad som man kan kalla en "säker omstart" , det kommer, och sen kan man tycka vad man vill om det.

Nice pic!

Nu ska du vara "DUKTIG" och läsa hela tråden.

Det är väl värt det ; )